Tuesday, August 24, 2010

Tough On Crime

Police chiefs promise to wage public, political campaign for long-gun registry

Police take on Harper over census

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21 Comments:

  • Perhaps if these guys stuck to what they are paid for and left politics to the politicians we wouldn't have disasters like the recent Pickton case in BC, the four Mounties shot in Alberta, or 20 years and millions of dollars later still no-one charged in the Air India affair.

    By Blogger jad, at 9:55 AM  

  • Ah, but that is just the elite, out of touch "latte sipping" chiefs. The front line officers are overwhelmingly in support of disbanding the registry, based on a couple who have said they are opposed and a completely unscientific poll that may have been completed by non-police officers.

    Anyone who does or says anything against the Harper government has an ulterior, evil motive to do so.

    By Blogger Gayle, at 9:57 AM  

  • Heh. And as I typy my comment, Jad shows up and proves me right.

    These guys are so predictable.

    By Blogger Gayle, at 9:58 AM  

  • Well Gayle, why not read the article about the survey and see for yourself if it is completed by "non-police officers", based merely on "a couple that said they are opposed".

    But we know you don't care and why you are opposed to listening to the people on the ground actually doing the job. It's because it doesn't jive with the narrative that rabid gun haters likeyou are trying to paint.

    The response is "predicatable" because it is the correct one. Nice try, Gayle.

    By Anonymous Michael Harkov, at 10:13 AM  

  • The police chiefs don't have a clue what their members want. Their too busy playing politics.

    Talk about following an ideological solution.. I guess we just need to throw a few more billion at it before it actually does something.

    By Blogger ridenrain, at 10:26 AM  

  • http://www.sudburystar.com/Community/NewsDisplay.aspx?c=64288

    During debates on Bill C-391, some police services members told the Standing Committee on Public Safety and National Security that police were being warned by superiors against speaking publicly against the registry. Meanwhile, Kuntz’s fellow officers have cautioned him that his stance is likely to have a career-limiting effect. During his 22 years as a police officer, he has worked in the Intelligence Analysis Unit, Cold Case Homicide, Integrated Intelligence Unit with EPS and RCMP, Criminal Investigation Section, Driver Training, and he has been acting Detective/Sergeant.

    “I have had an excellent career thus far in the rank of Constable,” he says. “I made it clear to our Human Resources recently that I would not be participating in any future promotion processes. Some things are more important than my personal ambitions. This is one of them. It is something that affects all Canadians as it is our money funding this wasteful program.”
    He also provides some sage advice for new recruits: “If you rely on a computer database for your safety, you are an idiot. Learn to investigate using your observation and communication skills. We were pretty successful in doing that for 100 years prior to the registry.”

    ===================
    You know, it is funny. When Mr. Colvin spoke up about the detainne issue, all we heard from his supporters was the he simply MUST be credible because golly gee, who would risk their career to do so. Yet here a rank and file officer is being told to keep his mouth shut and warned that he was hurting his career by not doing exactly that. Once again, anothe example of Liberal hypocrisy raises it's head.

    What else did he say? -

    "Most of the respondents were constables and sergeants/detectives – guys and gals with their boots on the pavement, so to speak. They’re the cops that the public meets and deals with on a daily basis. I respect Chief Rick Hanson of Calgary Police Services. He took a stand against the CACP’s position on the registry. It takes a lot of guts to face others of equal rank and say, ‘you are wrong.’”

    Anyone who does or says anything that supports the Harper government does not have an ulterior, evil motive to do so.

    By Anonymous Michael Harkov, at 10:33 AM  

  • Gotta love gun nut conservatives...

    This was a straw poll, essentially a show of hands. I haven't seen the actual poll methodology posted anywhere beyond 'nation wide' and the number of responses. But as the link below shows, there are almost 70,000 officers in Canada, and though based on sample size the total of some 2600 officers appears substantial, without knowing the methodology used, the results are unreliable and irrelevant, but then you conservatives have proven accuracy and statistics (along with reality) aren't things you're interested in. I should also say

    http://www40.statcan.ca/l01/cst01/legal05a-eng.htm

    But look at the language being used: "vast majority." Unless the universe has altered itself overnight, 2300 of 70000 is NOT a vast majority. This was a poll done through a police magazine, and depending on the nature of the magazine that could be anything. I'm sure if you polled readers of The Western Standard you might get a similar result. The total lack of proper methodology and the fact that these officers and the Conservative party are trumpetting these numbers are one of the clearest indications yet of how stupid AND ignorant the CPC caucus and policies seem to be.

    The other relevant piece of data is that other/past surveys have shown the complete opposite result. Moreover, there's the roughly 11,000 searches of the registry a day. For a completely useless system, it sure as hell is getting used a lot.

    What it comes down to in my mind is that anyone who trumpets the 'police survey' is ignorant of the issue at large as well as polling/stats methodology.

    And there really isn't any getting around that fact.

    By Anonymous Luke, at 10:46 AM  

  • Maybe you missed that whole "unscientific" part of the poll Michael - you know, that thing that gives it no validity?

    And how do we know that only police officers responded. It appears from the way it happened people had to write in - how do we know actual police officers did that and not people pretending to be police officers, or that the same person did not respond more than once under different names.

    Answer - we don't. That is why it is important that we do these things properly.

    In any event, if all you have for evidence the rank and file do not support the registry are a few anecdotal comments and an unscientific poll, then I would conclude you don't have much.

    I think if the rank and file really support the abolishing registry in great numbers, the fact they are in good company would allow them to come forward. If there are truly so many of them, it will not hurt their career to come forward. Indeed, there is yet to be any actual evidence anyone's career has been hurt (how do you know Kuntz is being held back? He does not even know if he is being held back - at least not because of the registry. Maybe he is just not very good at what he does).

    PS. I do not hate guns. I grew up with them and learned to shoot before I was 10. I just happen to be smarter than you and recognize the value of the registry, that's all.

    By Blogger Gayle, at 10:50 AM  

  • If anything, unlike the USA, Police Chiefs up here are not political. If they could get their hands on more officers to command, rather than something they considered "wasteful", they would. Fact is, the administration of a force can clearly identify how many times the registry is used (LOTS), and how useful it is to the team. The "poll" referred to above is a sham. A joke. The almost unanimous vote of the chiefs (besides the political decision of the Calgary Chief - if you say politics is a factor, seems the only Chief to detract from the prevailing view is the one from "Conservative Central") is a clear indicator of the well-informed opinion.

    Well-informed opinions and facts are something we know the Conservatives are against. They'd rather see ideological rants not based on facts.

    A government of morons tries to create an "idiot nation". Facts? Research? Science? Who needs that, when you have Barney the purple dinosaur? (right, Stock?)

    By Blogger WesternGrit, at 11:34 AM  

  • re: this "survey": as Chief Blair said about it on Power & Politics yesterday, it's a highly suspect push-poll (conducted by a someone who moonlights as a hunting guide, driven by his an ad in the police mag, which we haven't seen, so the respondents are self-, not randomly-selected, and we don't even know what the actual (leading?) question was).

    Sure, a lot of cops are just as much of gun-lovin' libertarians as some of the 'About to Go Postal' wingnuts the database is intended to help with. (Witness the incident in Manila yesterday: http://www.cbc.ca/world/story/2010/08/24/philippines-hostage-canadian-passports.html ) But that doesn't mean they have any real understanding of the true value of the registry. And even among the frontline law enforcement members of that very publication, a different poll and discussion shows far more appreciation than Kuntz lets on: 1/3rd were in favour in this poll on the public part of their fora: http://forums.blueline.ca/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=17977&start=0

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at 12:07 PM  

  • So Anon, the police chiefs understand the "real value" of the registry, but the the front line officers might not? Heh.

    Maybe he is just not very good at what he does.

    Lets see - during his 22 years as a police officer, he has worked in the Intelligence Analysis Unit, Cold Case Homicide, Integrated Intelligence Unit with EPS and RCMP, Criminal Investigation Section, Driver Training, and he has been acting Detective/Sergeant. That must mean he is not very good at what he does. Why on earth would we want someone who "wasn't very good at what he does" doing intelligence analysis or criminal investigations, right Gayle?

    Gayle, you denigrate the "non-scientific" poll of rank and file police officers because it is inconvenient and doesn't fit in with your side's little narrative, full stop. But even so, how about we ask what Angus-Reid has found out when asking Canadians about the effectiveness of the registry? He is "scientific", right? So what do they say? -

    Two-in-five Canadians (43%) believe the registry has been unsuccessful in preventing crime in Canada, while three-in-ten (29%) think it has had no effect on crime. Only 13 per cent of respondents believe the Canadian Firearms Registry has been successful.
    http://www.visioncritical.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/08/2010.08.24_Guns_CAN.pdf

    Well, there you go, Gayle; 13 percent believe in this registry according to a "scientific poll". Maybe THEY "aren't very good at what THEY do".

    Nice try again, Gayle.

    By Anonymous Michael Harkov, at 1:16 PM  

  • Gee, isn't that handy that you have a brand new poll to trot out and that 'rogue' cop's complete dossier in your back pocket, Mr. Apparatchik, the very day the Police Chiefs are about to release their report detailing the benefits of the Gun Registry?

    Geez, why doesn't Harper save us all some time and just arrest all the Chiefs, Opposition leaders, and dissenters of all stripes and get his purges and totalitarian transformation over with.

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at 1:26 PM  

  • LOL Anon, that dossier was hardly in MY "back pocket". It is what it is and is merely in the link I provided. I thought it was worth mentioning since you guys like to make a big deal that police chiefs are supporting your guy's narrative, and that someone else suggested that perhaps he wasn't any good at waht he does. I mean if the police chiefs support the registry, why, it MUST be work keeping is what I hear from you guys all the time. Well, many of they rank and file officers doing the job are compentent, well trained, and experienced individuals as I have indicated by one exam ple, and their opinions count as well, inconvenient to your guys' narrative as that may be.

    That officer's survey was denigrated as "unscientific", so when I provide a recent "scientific" one to show that Canadians think this two billion boondoggle is a load of crap, why, all of sudden, it is in MY "back pocket."

    As for the rest of your screed, good gravy, get a grip.

    By Anonymous Michael Harkov, at 1:45 PM  

  • None of these comments were worth scrolling through.

    By Anonymous Jacques Beau Vert, at 2:23 PM  

  • Hahaha

    I laugh at the poll because it is utterly unreliable. The fact you are not even trying to address the criticisms directed to that suggests you know this.

    But thanks for providing a poll that demonstrates people are unaware of how the gun registry is used. Because popular opinion on always makes things magically come true. Kind of like how it was popular to believe Africans should be slaves in the American south once upon a time.

    From your description it does not sound as if this cop has been held back in his career, despite his views on the registry. You do accept that the higher you go, the fewer positions are available, right? As in, one might be good enough to get to where he got, and still not be good enough to go further?

    Otherwise we would have a whole lot of homicide detectives becoming Chief of Police, and a whole lot of Chiefs of Police.

    Anyway...

    By Blogger Gayle, at 3:15 PM  

  • As Jeff shows, those poll figures arent so cut and dry as our Conservative Kool-Aid friend Michael and others would imply.

    For instance:


    When asked if they’d favour a complete ban on handguns in Canada, nearly half, 49 per cent, said yes it would be justified, while 39 per cent said it would be justified. Again, besides the near majority, the interesting thing here is the trends: support for a ban was up three points, and more strikingly opposition to a handgun ban was down by seven points.

    ...Angus Reid also asked if it should be legal or illegal for ordinary Canadians to own firearms all together. In a reversal from last year, a plurality of Canadian (45 per cent) said it should be illegal, and 40 per cent said it should stay legal. Illegal was up by six points, while keep it legal declined by seven.

    So, look at the numbers and the trends in totality and what can we take away? Canadians are increasingly favouring stricter gun control, not looser. Support for scrapping the registry is declining, and support shouldn’t be taken as a condemnation of gun control.

    By Blogger Scott Tribe, at 3:22 PM  

  • This registry does nothing better than the previous firearms control system but wasted billions in the process. It’s nothing more than a political promise to Toronto and the party insiders who got the computer contracts. It would have made no difference if we kept the last system, yet mandatory prison sentences for gun crimes WOULD have saved lives.

    By Blogger ridenrain, at 3:35 PM  

  • With respect, the Police Chiefs and Association disagree with you.. I trust their judgment over a political ideologue.. but then, Conservative hate the experts in their chosen field and like to pretend they know everything - we've seen it with the Long Form Census.. We see it in spending billions of dollars on new jails, when the crime rate is dropping, and we see it with the Long-Gun Registry.

    The CPC is the Party of Ignorance.

    By Blogger Scott Tribe, at 3:43 PM  

  • It is amazing that anybody would think the Conservatives are tough on crime when they let their crime legislation die so they could prorogue parliament.

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at 5:06 PM  

  • "...mandatory prison sentences for gun crimes WOULD have saved lives..."

    The liberals introduced that at the same time as the gun registry.

    By Blogger Gayle, at 5:12 PM  

  • Gayle:

    You really should stop referring to that sign-up list as a "poll". It was just an online question, not a poll.

    A police officer posted a notice in a magazine soliciting responses to his online question. There really was no more methodology than that. We have no idea if respondents were police officers. We have no idea if, like with most such online questions, it was circulated among pro-gun groups or freeped. It has even less value than a CBC Question of the Week.

    Word of warning: the RCMP's own investigation into the gun registry is only a bit better, so should not be used either. No poll has been conducted of the rank and file.

    Having said that, I think it pretty safe to say that most police officers would be in favour of the gun registry. Police will always be in favour of more information about civilians, not less, no matter if it is of great or just a little value; they are generally always naturally in favour of gun control of any kind; and they tend to like to have things registered generally.

    By Blogger Ted Betts, at 5:54 PM  

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